Talk:Imperial Intelligence Agent (stats)
I wish my characters had stats like that. ;) --Zhuk0v Ludicrous, wether from a WEG "official" source or not. --Mahon 19:45, 15 March 2007 (UTC) The stats are taken verbatim from the Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook. While I admit that they are high, one has to realize the nature of Imperial Intelligence... these are field agents, and Intelligence is a very small agency. There are very few agents compared to other organizations: Intelligence has barely a quarter the agents that ISB has. Nevertheless, Intelligence is one of the most professional agencies in the galaxy, and it is known that they are far superior in skill and efficiency than their ISB counterparts, and they make up for their small size with their skills. Imperial Intelligence operates some of the best men and women in the Empire, and they do their job better than anyone. That is why their skills are so high, compared to Stormtroopers, Army toopers, TIE pilots, COMPNOR, and any others. Will a player ever run into an Intelligence agent? Probably not. But they're out there, doing their work. Furthermore, a lot of their skills are enhanced through drugs and other techniques, making them even higher. However, if Prospero, the Imperial FH, has an issue with this, then let it be known and something can be done to nix these stats... but, as it stands, these are the official stats for Intelligence agents. --Danik Kreldin 20:42, 15 March 2007 (UTC) :-If you're using the Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook as an "official source" for stats, then the facts from that sourcebook must be valid — thus, Thrawn is dead. Case closed. -- Hawke / Rtufo 20:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC) :-To have a high stat in an area of specialisation is not particularly bothersome. The 'solo operator' seems to have universally high stats in odd and perplexing areas. We have a dodge stat that's up in FC territory, and these intel agents appear to be masters of everything. Hooray for cherry picking from sources not approved as canon, with poor quality control and differing standards of balance than those recognized by the MUSH then calling them official. --Mahon 21:05, 15 March 2007 (UTC) *I don't think I cherry picked from anything.. I'm pulling all the stats from every sourcebook I can get a hold of, including NR unit stats (I'll be uploading the NR SpecForce stats eventually). So far only have the NR Sea Commandos. That's what this particular sourcebook lists... and these sourcebooks are canonical, as far as LucasFilm is concerned. What MUSH policy is towards these sourcebooks is up in the air... if you didn't realize, all the stats for starships and weapons are taken from these very same sourcebooks. So apparently the MUSH recognizes the RPG stats listed in these books. If those stats are acceptable, but the stats for Stormtroopers, NR Commandos, and Intelligence agents not recognized, then wouldn't that just be cherry picking through the sourcebook, picking what you want and don't want? I'm not cherry picking through any of the sourcebooks - I put whatever the sourcebooks list down. If you want proof, I'll be more than glad to take a screen shot of the sourcebook and post it on the Wiki. Also, last I recall, the MUSH recognizes the Thrawn trilogy as canon. But, the MUSH also must recognize the other sourcebooks as legitimate sources of information because the whole MUSH is based on those sourcebooks - the core rule book makes up the combat rules, the items, weapons, and ships are all from various sourcebooks. -21:24, 15 March 2007 (UTC) Dispute Notice I slapped a dispute template on this one. My intent is to inform players that while this information may be accurately sourced from WEG the information isn't necessarily approved for the MUSH. Once someone with the proper MUSH authority rules on this one, we can remove the notice. -- Xerxes 21:33, 15 March 2007 (UTC) * Is there or do we need a better / more specific notice for not-necessarily-approved-for-SW1, or is the dispute template the way to go? -- Xerxes 21:35, 15 March 2007 (UTC) ** Dispute tag does the trick in my books. Accurately cited from a WEG sourcebook, but not necessarily appropriate or even particularly compatible with the MUSH. It's still chaff, but at least it's labelled appropriately. --Mahon 22:11, 15 March 2007 (UTC) **I agree. It is accurately sourced from the WEG sourcebook, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily approved by the MUSH. That's why I said people like Prospero should look into it - I'm merely providing the information as listed in the sourcebook. However, I do have an issue with what Mahon calls cherry picking - taking what you want from the sources as they fit your interests. If we use all the weapon and ship stats as they are in the sourcebooks, why not the character stats? --Danik Kreldin 21:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC) *** Because of that little disclaimer at the bottom of SWINFO THEME2. I'm not saying that every character template ever posted in a SW sourcebook is bad, but this one strikes me as junk, for MUSH purposes, and slightly squirrely in general. --Mahon 22:11, 15 March 2007 (UTC) *I have no reasons to fight for this stat - I'm merely in the process of transferring the D6 stats over to the Wiki for quick reference because the MUSH is based on D6 and uses the stats in the published sourcebooks. If Minkar, Cypher, Prospero or anyone else in the upper admin who have a say on the MUSH want to fix this stat, then go ahead - the Wiki is made for that purpose. But just because you have an issue with it doesn't mean we're all going to bow to your desires. I didn't create these stats, it's been like this since The Last Command sourcebook was released. I agree that Intelligence agents have very high stats in all areas, but I also recognize that there is a canonical reason behind it. But, ultimately, it isn't our decision - until there's a ruling from Minkar, this is the stats as they are in canon. --Danik Kreldin 22:27, 15 March 2007 (UTC) **Please continue to contribute this information. It is both relevant and potentially useful. In the absence of a ruling either way, the information is not official and it's not not official... but that shouldn't stop us from having it. -- Xerxes 22:33, 15 March 2007 (UTC) ***I have no intentions of stopping ;) I have almost all of the sourcebooks, everything from the CSA Sourcebook to the Tales of the Jedi. I'm not uploading just Imperial stats, either - I have every intention of also doing NR stats as I come across them, and have already done so with the NR Sea Commandos. I'm considering adding the stats for some of the NPC FCs on the MUSH - such as Ackbar, Madine, and so forth, but I don't think they'll be necessary unless someone in the NR ever uses them for something. --Danik Kreldin 22:43, 15 March 2007 (UTC) One possible reconciliation between stats like this and the MUSH is to realize that WEG offers a mechanism for increasing attributes over time, while the MUSH does not (only skills). I would expect an elite NPC to have no higher average attribs than a developed PC (3D). So for purposes of discussion, I propose scaling all NPC attribs down to an average of 3D, lowering their skills accordingly. Non-elite NPCs with average attribs less than 3D are fine the way they are. Feature characters are just that cool so I have no problem quoting their stats straight over either. --Lolkje 23:11, 15 March 2007 (UTC) *That wouldn't really work. Imagine Stormtroopers or NR Marine NPCs with just 3D for Blaster and Dodge. They both have around 5D for each skill. With 3D, they'd be no better off than a simple thug on the street, while they're supposed to represent years of training and indoctrination, and are some of the best in the galaxy. If a Stormtrooper NPC had just 3D blaster, any PC could just walk into a room full of Stormtroopers and mow them all down - because any PC who puts points into Dexterity-related skills will have at least 5D or 6D, maybe more, and how would that look? The NPCs are supposed to represent a challenge, hardship, etc. --Danik Kreldin 23:25, 15 March 2007 (UTC) ** Let me clarify with an example. Look at the Solo Agent's Perception: 4D, with Search and Sneak at 6D. If his average attribute is scaled to 3D, then his Perception would be about 3D+2, with Search and Sneak at 5D+2. His Knowledge would go from 3D to 2D+2, with his Languages going from 7D to 6D+2. He'd still have all of those vast quantities of skill points, and still be a formidable challenge, but his sheet would now be something attainable by a veteran developed player. --Lolkje 23:42, 15 March 2007 (UTC) ***I see what you're saying. Honestly, I don't care what happens to the Solo Agent's +sheet - how his +sheet ends up is of little relevance to me. I just put it here in its original form along with the rest of the NPC sheet templates as a point of reference for those who use them in combat scenes and so forth. If the Admin decide that this particular +sheet is way over the top and trim it down, go all out - this Wiki is set up to be edited by anyone. Your suggestion is a good one and I hope the Admin take it into consideration should they decide to trim this sheet. --Danik Kreldin 23:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC) ****This is another case of information that should come from the MUSH and be distributed to the Wiki. All of the NPC stats should be generated on the game and published here. There are so many places where we break with WEG already that we shouldn't publish NPC sheets with stats unattainable or unavailable to players. Even in the case of thingsl like Royal Guard and Elite NPCs or else that means that PCs can never reach the level of NPCs and that is just plain wrong. I have always preferred the rule of thumb that NPCs either have 4D or 5D in their relevant job related skills and base stats in non-related skills so that means that Joe Stormtrooper with his 5D Blaster skill still provides a meaningful threat to PCs but is not overwhelming in power. I know that Cypher is working on NPC objects that are actually in base with WEG for non-elite forces. Honestly I think we would save a huge amount of work waiting for those to be finished then published, rather than adding a bunch of information and then having to change/delete a lot of it. I applaud Danik for being well intentioned but honestly I think all we are doing is creating a bunch of extra work for the Wiki-philes of our community when efforts could be better spent elsewhere. --ImperialFH 01:03, 16 March 2007 (UTC) *Well, there are only two cases where the NPC stats exceed those that players can reach - Imperial Royal Guardsmen and these Intel agents. Everything else a player should be able to reach straight from CharGen. In the sourcebooks, there are a few other examples - such as Sovereign Protectors - but those don't exist on the MUSH. However, Royal Guardsmen are supposed to be the pinnacle of Imperial Stormtrooper training and might - it should have a skill cap much higher than those of normal players. As for the Intel agents, I agree that the canon stats are rather odd, but the COMPNOR Stats, which is the rival to II, are significantly lower (I think CompForce troops get like 2D+2 fort heir blaster). And there's a reason for that in canon. II is a very professional branch. However, I'll leave it to the Admin/Prospero to determine how these stats should really be. Honestly, I don't see a problem with anything else... the stormtrooper stats are perfectly fine, as are the Army troop stats. --Danik Kreldin 01:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC) **I am sure there are others, but remember that at the end of the day, West End Games made these NPCs to be fodder for Player Characters in a 5-8 person group in Tabletop play. It can work great there or not, depending on your own impressions of WEGs D6 system. When we bring the MUSH into account though, PCs have their stats capped which inhibits their ability to deal with hordes of NPCs, also in a lot of cases NPCs become PC backup and must be scaled to not completely overshadow the PCs. NPC TIE pilots have an SF Piloting skill that is almost the max of what PCs can have. That is out of scale, Also I do not think the term canon really applies to RPG statistics. I am sure Hawke will agree that WEG has their head in the sand on a whole lot of stuff and suffers like other RPG systems do to make new 'expansions/modules' ramp up the power from the previous module to keep power gamers interested and most importantly purchasing. An economic incentive does a lot to persuade writers to publish what fans want to see rather than what is thematic. Game Masters have a great deal of power to adjust/modify the stats WEG lists to suit their needs by publishing these, it complicates the issue where in a lot of circumstances players are relying on consentual RP, meaning that everybody involved agrees to certain things. I suppose that if there is a caveat/OOC warning at the bottom of every stat page declaring it's reprinted from its source as a guideline and that it is only IC if all players in the scene agree to it, and not in anyway an 'official' stat for that NPC, then it might be workable, otherwise there are just too many variables in all of this to make me comfortable in agreeing or disagreeing with the Stats for every NPC, though I imagine they would all have to be adjusted. --ImperialFH 02:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC) ***That's absolutely fine, Prospero, and I agree with you, I really do - like I said, I'm not defending or dictating these stats, I was merely posting them. I know very well that players have skill caps and are supposed to be superior to NPCs. And, as I post on the D6 Combat Rules page, NOTHING in D6 is absolute: roleplay is the ultimate rule and is what is most important. The rules are just there to help or provide an alternative, as are the stats. --Danik Kreldin 02:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC) ****I understand the why, but after the heat of this discussion, I am not sure that adding WEG stats should be a priority until things are clarifyed on the MUSH in terms of both ground and space combat, the last thing I want to see happen is the wiki become a point of arguement in a TP. Where player A sites the Wiki as stats for his squadron mates and player B disagrees, turning things into an arguement. IMHO our Wiki should be used as a means to solve disagreements rather than being potentially the cause of disagreement. --ImperialFH 02:28, 16 March 2007 (UTC) *****Very well, then, I can understand and deal with that - no problem. Honestly. I have no issue with not adding the stats - I had no intention of going into this to start a flame war. And Prospero, I know you and I have our differences, but I at least thank you (and Xerxes) for being level-headed about it, rather than shouting "BAN BAN BAN" in my face. --Danik Kreldin 02:32, 16 March 2007 (UTC) *I don't like this at all. You know what the problem is, Danik, is that you aren't even allowed on the MUSH anymore, yet you make contributions like this all the time. You don't have any way of consulting with the actual game administrators on any of this information. I have a very real problem with you contributing anything to the WIKI after the date of your banning from the game because of this very circumstance. You haven't consulted the Imperial Administration (which includes me as COMPNOR/ISB/Intel Imperial OOC Head) before posting this information, and it just muddles things up and makes a mess for people like me and Prospero to have to clean up. We don't have time for it, it sucks away our ability to create role-play for the actual players of the MUSH. I don't have a problem with you contributing stuff that's already happened, as in history, but you have no way of determining that this information is okay by the MUSH staff. I don't see the logic in allowing you to add information that is not approved by faction staff, ''and then asking us to come on here and approve it.'' I don't see where you're given that right in being banned from the game. This kind of stuff needs to be discussed in the game by the NR and Imperial faction heads, not dictated by a banned player. This is a load of bullcrap that needs to be stopped right away. --SW1 Kyle 01:26, 16 March 2007 (UTC) **I really, really, REALLY have to agree with ImperialFH and Kyle on this one. For one thing, the stats here are completely ridiculous. Why are there even PCs if the background characters are this ridiculously powerful? There is zero need for these sorts of things to be posted here unless they come from the MUSH's administrators first. If any standard NPC templates are to be posted, they should come from the people in charge of those NPCs, AND be approved by MUSH staff, not just from you. --Del *Well, I'm sorry you have a problem with me contributing anything to the Wiki after I was banned, but frankly, I don't care. If you have a problem with it, leave the Wiki. Anyway, I had already set up the NPC pages for the Imperial Royal Guards and Stormtroopers sometime back in 2005 or 2006, I dunno, check the history pages on them - I was slowly but surely getting the D6 stat info onto the MUSH, but I stopped after a while. I had talked to Minkar about it then, believe it or not, and while she had reservations about the Royal Guard stats, they were ultimately approved and in fact used in roleplay (specifically during the Cochran battle, as I recall) to determine NPC stats. This has just merely been me continuing adding those stats from the sourcebooks that the MUSH itself is based on - information that has always been there. I'm just putting them on the Wiki. Then it becomes a case by case basis as to which ones are acceptable or not - this is the only problematic one due to the extreme nature of the stats. And I don't think I'm dictating anything... I've just been posting the information from the sourcebooks for reference. Don't think I dictated anything. Otherwise wouldn't I be shouting that this is canon and can't be changed no matter what etc etc? And Del, they're not coming just from me, they're coming from the very books that SW1 was created upon. The stats for teh Mon Calamari Star Cruiser that's on the game? From the very same book that I pulled the Stormtrooper stats from. I haven't made anything up, have done no original research or anything - this is verbatim from the books. However, as I said, just because they're from the books doesn't make it the accepted fact - I'm just providing what is in the books and if they become unacceptable they can be changed by the powers that be. I am not saying "YOU HAVE TO USE THESE STATS BLARGH". They're there for reference and if they need to be changed to fit SW1 then do it. I just fail to see where I've done wrong here - I'm not imposing anything on anyone nor am I enforcing this. I'm just putting here what it is in the books, nothing more, nothing less. I didn't create these stats. --Danik Kreldin 01:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC) ** As 1 of the 2 current NR AFHs (Luke being the other), I must respectfully request that Danik cease and desist any involvement with this wiki on 'behalf' of the New Republic. It is not welcome by our admin team or apparently by Prospero for the Imperial side. We can handle the updating of our NPC files on our own time and respectfully request that it not be handled by a former player who is not even welcome on the game anymore due to his own actions. Whether anyone agrees or disagrees with the on-game decision, as this wiki is an extension of the game, I formally request that the ban include official off-game sources such as this wiki site. -- User:Kyrin 01:52, 16 March 2007 (UTC) *** As a player who appreciates Danik's creation, maintainance, and contributions to the Wiki, I must counter-request that any and all persons who have issues with him over what he did on the game just leave this place alone now. Seriously. The SW1 wiki is only an extention of the game to the point that you let it be, and since you clearly have problems with Danik, I'd say you should probably get your own website in the fashion of previous NR administrations, because while Danik's actions on the MUSH were totally reprehensible, the fact remains that he's doing his best to make up for it by continuing to put so much work into this site. And personally, just as I think his actions on SW1 were bad news, I think the idea of asking to ban Danik from a wiki he worked so hard to create is pretty morally bankrupt as well. You should seriously be ashamed of yourself! -- User:Zhuk0v **** That is complete and utter bull. What is this called? SW1 MUSH WIKI. NOT DANIK WIKI.. --SW1 Kyle 02:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC) ***** I unequivocally agree. This site is not called DANIK WIKI. -- Xerxes 02:23, 16 March 2007 (UTC) ****** I tried to get it named Xerxes' Wiki when it first started, but for some reason that didn't catch on. -- Xerxes 02:23, 16 March 2007 (UTC) ******* Yeah, I apologize, guys. You're right in that this is a group contribution, and that regardless of the fact that Hawke, Xerxes, and Danik put in a lot more work than I do, it takes a MUSH for any of this to matter. I was just a little bothered by the idea of having someone silenced who is actively at least trying to help, if not always succeeding. --Zhuk0v ******** DISCLAIMER: COMPLETELY OFF-TOPIC HA! HA! Hawke. Somebody said I contribute a lot! Now returning you to the flame war already in progress... -- Xerxes 03:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC) **** I never asked Danik to be banned from the Wiki. I asked that he be banned from adding information such as this, which he has not cleared with Faction Staff or MUSH Staff. If he wants to e-mail Prospero, or Nergui, or Aaargh, or Minkar, then by all means go for it. The problem here is not that he's contributing, it's what and why. There's no sense for the SW1MUSH wiki to dictate what is on the MUSH itself, and while you've claimed that there's no dictating going on, that isn't what a bulk of the players are going to get out of it. They are going to come here, read something, call it legitimate, bring it into RP, and like Prospero said, that is only going to cause strife. We don't need any more strife, the game is ripe with it as is. I have no problems with most of Danik's contributions. We don't see eye to eye, but I've come to appreciate most of it and even be thankful for it. But this is crossing the line. This is a SW1 MUSH wiki, it says so in the title, the main page, the web address. If you want to copy the whole thing over to a new page, or negotiate with Minkar and the other wiki administrators to change it or whatever, fine. But as it stands, the wiki reflects the game, not the other way around. Every contribution I've made has either been the source of a discussion with fellow Faction Administrators, MUSH Administrators, or a record of role-played developments. These NPC stats, for example, very well may be legitimate to WEG, but the MUSH does not intrinsically follow WEG all the time. It's a principle. You shouldn't, you shouldn't post something of this nature without making sure the existing MUSH and Faction Administration is okay with it! A 7D+1 dodge for an NPC is repulsive, it completely detracts the point of there being a difference between PC's and NPC's, and I would feel the same way whether this were NR Intelligence Agents, CDU Intel, or Gammorean Guards. THAT is the problem. --SW1 Kyle 02:42, 16 March 2007 (UTC) ***** Or, we could post the information with a Dispute notice on it to warn people that it isn't really approved for the MUSH, and THEN discuss, revise and improve the content. On second thought, that probably couldn't work. -- Xerxes 02:55, 16 March 2007 (UTC) ****** Really, Xerxes? ;) --Danik Kreldin 02:58, 16 March 2007 (UTC) -- : Nobody is dictating anything. Information is being provided in good faith. Information is being discussed in good faith. Everyone is welcome to express his or her opinion and to voice their criticisms about the content. Summarily silencing others is NOT the answer. As long as people follow the policies established by the wiki community, their contributions are welcome. This includes Danik. If you happen to think there should be some kind of alteration to the wiki policies, some sort of approval process for content, you're welcome to propose it and we'll let the wiki community decide. That's how things are supposed to work. -- Xerxes 02:07, 16 March 2007 (UTC) To avoid confusion between this being SW1wiki versus being a venue for WEGwiki ('because SW1 uses WEG'), it may be more appropriate to post a library of WEG stats over on Wookieepedia. They already have a WEG page. Then Danik's expert pool of resources are there in a more general place if admin want references in the future, and this wiki remains totally SW1-specific. Danik, what would Angela think about posting stats over there? --Lolkje 17:17, 16 March 2007 (UTC) * I for one think this is a brilliant idea. We can choose to make a page here that links to those articles on Wookiepedia, without having to put them here in a manner where players may get confused about its legitimacy in spite of the dispute notice. This is a very good compromise, and I'm behind it 100%. --SW1 Kyle 17:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC)